About daily bread: leaven or yeast

On the Internet, passions have long been raging about the use of modern yeast. Some say that they are useful, while others claim that they are harmful ... So where is the truth? Who is right?
I do not side with either one or the other, and I think that information is never superfluous. Conclusions do you

To the history of the question:
For a long time in Russia, the bread table was looked upon as the throne of God. And in the only prayer left by Jesus Christ, the word bread is synonymous with food in general. Bread is a gift from God - our great-grandfathers said. But they did not bake it with thermophilic yeast. This yeast appeared before the war. Scientists who were studying this issue came across sources from Hitler's Germany in Leninka, where it was said that this yeast was grown on human bones and that if Russia did not die in a war, it would die from yeast.
Our specialists were not allowed to make links to sources, to copy them. The documents were classified.
So, if thermophilic yeast arose recently, then with the help of which kvass bread was baked in ancient times and in the recent past? Famous peasant sourdough cultures were made from rye flour, straw, oats, barley, and wheat. Until now, in remote villages, recipes for making bread without today's yeast have been preserved. It was these starters that enriched the body with organic acids, vitamins, minerals, enzymes, fiber, mucus, pectin, biostimulants.
Baking bread in folk cuisine has always been a kind of ritual. The secret of its preparation has been passed down from generation to generation. Almost every family had its own secret. Bread was prepared about once a week with various leavens: rye, oat. The use of unrefined rye flour led to the fact that although the bread was coarse, it contained all the useful substances that are found in cereals. And when baked in a Russian oven, the bread acquired an unforgettable taste and aroma. We can safely say that such bread as in Russia has never been in the world. It was consumed in large quantities. The average peasant, for example, in the 19th century ate more than 3 pounds of bread daily (a pound is equal to 430 grams). It was this kind of bread that made it possible to regulate the work of the intestines and introduce a number of useful substances into the body. They could only dream of sith, that is, white, refined bread. The habit of rye bread from the first days of life was so strong that its absence was hardly tolerated.
Such cases are typical. In 1814, when the Russian grenadiers, famous for their strength and endurance, entered Paris, they began, going into bakeries, to look for rye bread and asked the owners for "bread quickly and quickly." This is how the "bistro" was born. Being in the Caucasus, Pushkin also suffered without rye bread.
The ancient science of baking was preserved among the people for a long time. I have heard about a funny case when bakers came to the Minister of Light and Food Industry with an amazing gift, which they brought wrapped in canvas. Showing that it was a lush loaf, they wrapped it up and sat on it again, then got up, threw back the canvas and the minister saw the following picture: the bread, squeezed by the weight of large men, straightened out before his eyes and acquired the same size. The craftsmen noticed that such bread will not grow moldy and stale even after a year. This miracle was hard to believe. This bread was also not baked using thermophilic yeast. Fillipova's bakery was known throughout Moscow, famous for its bakery products, witnesses of our glorious past in the field of baking are still alive.
But for several decades, bread has been baked differently.And for this they do not use natural starters, but thermophilic yeast invented by man, Saccharomycetes, which simply do not exist in nature. And the technology of their preparation is anti-natural.
Scientists all over the world have sounded the alarm long ago. The mechanisms of the negative impact of yeast on the body are revealed. French professor Etienne Wolf, academician F.G. Uglov, 13.11. Iskakov. P. P. Dubinin (Problems of statistics and economic modeling. Proceedings of the Plekhanov Moscow Institute of National Economy), Rosini Gianfranco ("The presence of a killing feature of yeast". Canadian Journal of Microbiology ", 1983. t, 29. No. 10. p. 1462), G Bassi and DA Sherman (Killing factor, - Biochemistry, Biophysics, 1973, No. 298, p. 868-879), SA Konovalov ("Yeast Biochemistry", 1962, M., Pishchepromizdat, p. 13-14), correspondent of "Izvestia" L. Volodin, (Paris, February 27 by phone, published on February 28, p. 4), Rubin B. A. (Fermentation, - BME, vol. 3, 1976, p. 383- 384), V. M. Dilman ("Four models of medicine", L., Medicine, 1987. pp. 40-42, 214-215), Marilyn Diamond, Donald Schnell, (USA "Acid-base balance"), B Mikhailov, L. Trushkina ("Food is a serious matter" M., "Molodaya Gvardiya", 1988, pp. 5-7). The bibliography on this topic can be continued, but we'd better see what thermophilic yeast is - saccharomycetes and what role do they play in reducing the health of those who eat foods prepared with them? nenie.
Thermophilic yeast and its negative health effects.
So, let's repeat: the saccharomycete yeast (thermophilic yeast), various races, which are used in the alcohol industry, brewing and baking, are not found in nature in the wild, that is, this is the creation of human hands, and not the creation of God. By morphological characteristics, they belong to the simplest marsupial fungi and microorganisms. Saccharomycetes, unfortunately, are more perfect than tissue cells, independent of temperature, pH, and air content. Even with the cell membrane destroyed by saliva lysozyme, they continue to live. The production of baker's yeast is based on its propagation in liquid nutrient media prepared from molasses (waste from sugar production). The technology is monstrous, anti-natural. Molasses is diluted with water, treated with bleach, acidified with sulfuric acid, etc. Strange methods, it must be admitted, are used to prepare food, moreover, given that there are natural yeast in nature, hop yeast, for example, malt, etc. etc.
Now let's see what a "disservice" thermophilic yeast does to our body ...

Pork yeast
Replacing the leaven with modern technologies is a violation of God's laws

The newspaper "Russkiy Vestnik" has always been distinguished by some harshness in many of its published materials. The article of the Dean (senior in the district) of the Yuzhsky district of the Ivanovo diocese, Hegumen Mitrofan (Lavrentiev), "On daily bread: leaven or yeast" was no exception. The abbot sharply criticizes the practice of baking prosphora (special round-shaped bread used in worship) with the use of yeast, which has developed in the modern Church. Yeast has never been used for baking prosphora before, says Father Mitrofan, and the substitution occurred due to the misconception of the essence of leavened bread.

One of the main mysteries of Christianity, bequeathed by Christ Himself, is the Eucharist: the mysterious transformation of bread and wine into the Body and Blood of Christ. According to the tradition that developed in the first centuries of Christianity, bread for the Eucharist (prosphora) was made from leavened dough. Later, the Western Church introduced the use of unleavened bread into practice, taking as a basis the unleavened bread used for the Jewish Passover, but the Eastern Church remained true to ancient traditions. Kvass dough, on the other hand, is a dough made on the basis of sourdough: liquid dough fermented with hops, or raisins, or oats with added sugar or honey.All the components of the starter culture are of plant origin, in contrast to the commonly used modern thermophilic yeast, which is of fungal origin, and, according to the author of the article, in modern technologies they can even be made from the bones of animals, mainly pigs. The main difference between sourdough and yeast: the first causes the fermentation process, the second - fermentation. And this fermentation causes the most negative consequences in the human body.

Our body, in order to neutralize the acid formed during fermentation, is forced to spend the alkaline reserve, and its significant decrease significantly weakens the body. When the blood hemoglobin iron acid is spent on neutralization, a person feels tired. If calcium is consumed for these needs, insomnia and irritability appear. Due to a decrease in the alkaline reserve, mental activity deteriorates, a depression appears. Washing out calcium salts from bones to neutralize acids is becoming one of the main causes of osteoporosis. A natural regularity of yeast fermentation in the body is a decrease in performance, immunity, resistance to infectious diseases, the risk of diabetes increases. It also has a negative indirect effect on the activity of the heart.

There are many scientific studies in which yeast is called the component of daily consumed foods that is most dangerous for our health. Acting at the cellular level, yeast causes neoplasms, including malignant ones. Experiments have shown that malignant tumors that are in the yeast base grow exponentially and completely disappear when removed from the yeast medium. It is not without reason that in the USA, Sweden and other countries, yeast-free bread is recommended as one of the means of preventing and treating cancer. Some researchers in their works call yeast cells "killer cells", which kill the less protected cells of the body by secreting poisonous proteins of low molecular weight in them. The toxic protein weakens plasma membranes, increasing their permeability to pathogenic microorganisms and viruses. In the Canadian "Journal of Microbiology" (No. 10, 1983), an article was published on this subject with the characteristic title: "The presence of a killing feature of yeast."

Believe the above information or not, everyone's business. After all, what can you not hear enough in our time oversaturated with information. And in fairness, it is worth noting that there are many studies proving the presence in yeast of a mass of elements useful for the body, the action of which overrides the possible negative consequences of their use. But recently, Central Television showed a rather instructive story from an orphanage at one of the Orthodox monasteries.

Former vagrants and homeless children, children from disadvantaged families lived in the orphanage. Despite the good living conditions and the constant care of adults, the children’s weakened health never returned to normal, and the orphanage was becoming more and more like a children's hospital. And so two nuns, biologists by education, arrived at the monastery, who changed the bread component of baby food: they completely excluded yeast-based bread and fatty sweet cookies from the diet and began to prepare yeast-free bread themselves according to old recipes. Oddly enough, these simple restrictions soon led to the fact that the children practically stopped getting sick. It is not for nothing that nutritionists are increasingly calling for the switch to rye bread, in the manufacture of which not yeast, but sourdough or malt are used.Vechorka will tell you what kind of bread is baked in Novosibirsk in the near future, but for now let us return to the article by Abbot Mitrofan in the Russkiy Vestnik newspaper.

In the only prayer left by Jesus Christ, "Our Father", the word "bread" is synonymous with food in general, and our ancestors said: "Bread is a gift from God." In Russia, both bread and church prosphora were always prepared on leavened bread baked from flour with the addition of leaven. And although sometimes this leaven was called yeast, but it has nothing to do with modern yeast. From generation to generation, recipes for the preparation of Russian bread have been passed down - hearty, nutritious, which does not lose its freshness for a long time. Therefore, our ancestors were also a strong leaven, not like the flimsy current generation, whose main request in prayers is a request for health. Or maybe it was this lost health that the Lord gave us in his prayer "Our Father" through our daily bread, which from ancient times was prepared with malt and leaven?

Valery MELNIKOV
17.03.2005

Prepared by Valery MELNIKOV
07.04.2005, 01:33
Leavened or unleavened?
Returning to printed
The publication of the article "Pork Yeast" ("VN" from 17.03) caused an ambiguous reaction among our readers, and especially among the parishioners of Novosibirsk Orthodox churches. In particular, questions arose: are there any fundamental differences between bread baked with sourdough and yeast bread, is it legal to bake prosphora (special liturgical breads used to celebrate the main Orthodox sacrament - the Eucharist) using pressed yeast, can modern yeast be made from pork bones, why in the Orthodox Church they use leavened bread, and not unleavened bread during the service of the Liturgy? Answers to some of the questions can be found in the article “Our Daily Bread…” on page 8. The rest were commented on by Archpriest Vitaly Bochkarev, cleric of the Ascension Cathedral.

In the Orthodox Church, the following requirements are imposed on the prosphora used in the service of the Divine Liturgy: the prosphora must be made from wheat flour; water and salt are used when kneading the dough. The dough should be leavened. Yeast has been used as a starter for many decades. According to the testimony of authoritative specialists in bakers, the biochemical processes occurring in the dough when using yeast and when using various starter cultures (hops, raisins, etc.) are identical. As it turned out, no "pork yeast" is produced in Novosibirsk, therefore the fears are groundless here too. Therefore, there is no reason to assert that a prosphora baked from yeast dough is somehow different from a prosphora baked from a dough made with sourdough. Therefore, if it is more convenient to prepare dough using yeast, this is not prohibited. If in any parish they know how to bake good prosphora using leavened dough, then such prosphora can also be used in the service of the Liturgy. Moreover, the Church has never worked out any rules regarding the technology of dough preparation. Orthodox church rules forbid only the use of unleavened bread during the Liturgy.

Meanwhile, those who read the Gospel could pay attention to the fact that the first Liturgy was celebrated by Jesus Christ at the Last Supper, when He and the apostles gathered to perform the rituals associated with the celebration of the Old Testament Passover. Moreover, in addition to the Passover lamb, bitter herbs, and sour and salty sauce, unleavened bread was also supposed to be eaten. Perhaps, during the establishment of the Sacrament of the Eucharist, Jesus Christ used this particular unleavened bread?

Indeed, at the Last Supper, Christ and the apostles fulfilled all the precepts of the Old Testament and ate unleavened bread. But the Eucharist was established after the Passover lamb had been eaten and all the Old Testament rites associated with it had been performed.Evangelists write that after that Jesus Christ took bread, blessed, broke and gave to His disciples, saying: "Take, eat: this is my body ..." (Matt. 26, 26). Moreover, in the original Greek text of the Gospel, bread is called artos. In the Greek language there were two words for bread: azimon - unleavened bread and artos - sour, risen bread. It was this kind of bread that was used by Christ for the first Liturgy. The rule to bake bread for the Eucharist from leavened dough has been established since the times of the Apostles.
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I pulled this topic out of the archive, since I am now solving the question for myself: what is the best way to bake bread - with yeast or leaven. I think that each of you at one time decided for himself this question. It is clear that sourdough bread is healthier, but the process of making it is many times more laborious. Therefore, the temptation is very great not to dwell on the usefulness and use yeast, but the thought of their dangers worries. I looked for information on the Internet and dug ...
There is a lot of conflicting information, and there is little time to study it. Surely many of you have gone this way at one time. Share information. Let's debate (the truth is born in an argument). Can everyone express their thoughts on this?

[Yeast in bread - are they harmful to humans?]

Yeast in bread - are they harmful to humans?
Microbiology Department of the State Research Institute of the Bakery Industry
A source: 🔗

Recently, a number of publications (clearly ordered) have appeared in the press about the alleged dangers of baker's yeast and the huge benefits of "hop bread". Without disputing the benefits of bread made with hop sourdough, let us dwell on individual points of these publications.

We believe that it is pointless to explain to some authors of such publications that yeast does not "devour the intestinal microflora", and there cannot be "yeast bacteria" in principle, just as there cannot be a feathered pike or a winged sheep. Such statements speak only of the lack of basic knowledge in the field of biology. Let's dwell on more meaningful statements.

In particular, the authors of this kind of publications argue that all yeast cells die in "hop bread" during baking, but not all of them in ordinary bread. This statement is also simply absurd. If you do not delve into the physical and chemical details, then the death of yeast when heated depends mainly on their type and temperature. During baking, in the center of the crumb, the temperature reaches 95-97 ° С, regardless of the technology used to prepare the dough. As for the type of yeast, it is known that hop starter cultures contain mainly the same S. Cerevisiae as in pressed or dried yeast, which was proved back in 1937 by VA Nikolaev [8].

Therefore, in both cases, the yeast almost completely dies off and only single yeast cells can remain viable when baking both "hop" and ordinary bread. This fact is well known and has long been included in textbooks [9, I].

In addition, the number of yeast cells entering the human body from bakery products is simply incomparable with the amount that enters a person with other food products. It is known that the yeast of the genus Saccharomyces is secreted from the surface of grapes, plums, apples, raspberries, strawberries, currants. For the production of wine, in the production of beer and kvass, the strains of Sassharomuses serevisiae (previously called S.vini, S. Carlsbergensis, etc.) are also used. S.serevisiae [5].

Thus, it is obvious that yeast will still enter the consumer's body, even if he completely refuses to eat bread and bakery products. Now let's consider what effect they have on the human body?

Yeast is not at all some kind of exotic, "derived by the efforts of geneticists" (as stated in one of the publications).They are a constant part of normal human microflora. About 25-30 yeast species are regularly found in the body, which do not cause manifestations of clinical infection [5]. The number of yeast in the intestine ranges from hundreds of cells to millions per gram. content [10, 11, 12].

As for publications about the longevity of the Abkhazians, who "do not bake bread, but are distinguished by longevity", the following facts can be cited: when studying the normal microflora of the intestinal tract of long-livers of Abkhazia and their family members, conducted in 1978-1981, yeast was detected almost constantly ( in 75-100% of cases) [2. 4]. In centenarians, among other yeasts, S. cerevisiae were isolated, and these strains were found to have strong antigonistic properties in relation to various pathogenic and opportunistic bacteria [3, 7]. The literature also describes other facts of inhibition of bacterial growth by protein substances isolated from baker's yeast [13].

Thus, the statements of the authors of such newspaper publications about the dangers of baker's yeast for human health are unfounded. They would not deserve special attention from specialists if they did not mislead the consumer, sowing unwarranted panic among the population.

And how could I miss another psychosis?
And again, misrepresentation and manipulation of facts. The phrase "bread is a gift from God" alone is turned upside down several times. Now what? The peasants should (guided by a literal interpretation) go out into the field and silently wait for wheat to grow in the middle of an empty field, mow itself, thresh and fill up the bags.

You need to eat food that you trust; if you have fears, do not take it in your mouth. The knowledge that "eat pesticides, DDT, dioxin, GMP, bird flu ..." is more harmful than the chemicals themselves.

In the first year of the institute, I conducted an experiment on myself. For a month I lived on a yeast-free diet. A good HEALING diet. But living on it is constantly difficult.
And yet I will use dry yeast in a bread maker. With gratitude to the people who produced: yeast, flour, salt, (almost) pure water, and Panasonic-255 bakery.

And about the "Cossacks who" quickly "demanded rye bread in Paris" ...
They baked the bread themselves! And when they entered the city, the commandant of Paris banned the sale of alcohol to the Russian army. If they wanted black bread, they would smash bakeries.
As I knew, in the summer I photographed this sign in Montmartre.
Should be around somewhere.

Vasilisa. Great article.
I have no time to spare and I have someone to take care of. Yes, and the bakery was bought to make life easier for yourself. And that's why I don't do leavening, I don't want to reinvent the wheel. I have used and will use dry yeast.
Everyone will decide for himself what is more convenient for him .... After all, some people love to wash with their hands (I personally know several).

Vasilisa. Great article.
I have no time to spare and I have someone to take care of. Yes, and the bakery was bought to make life easier for yourself. And that's why I don't do leavening, I don't want to reinvent the wheel. I have used and will use dry yeast.
Everyone will decide for himself what is more convenient for him .... After all, some people love to wash with their hands (I personally know several).

I totally agree with that. I tried to breed sourdough - this business did not work for me. A lot of fiddling with her, although it may be better to get bread, but it comes out great with yeast.

Even though I bake sourdough rye bread, I still add yeast.

[tanya1962]

Even though I bake sourdough rye bread, I still add yeast.

tanya1962, and why do you add yeast, if not a secret? Does sourdough bread rise poorly? If so, why not just by leaps and bounds? What are the benefits of using both?

Because with one leaven the bread does not rise as much as I would like, so I add yeast (1 tsp.l.) and the same with yeast when I add sourdough bread becomes airy. I wrote all this for rye and buckwheat bread.

Does anyone have information about which bread is more caloric with yeast or sourdough, or is there no significant difference?

to bake bread in a bread maker, you need a symbiosis of lactic acid bacteria, which are found in sourdough, and yeast (fungi) to raise the dough

Is this for rye bread or what? Wheat and yeast alone seem to rise well.

Still, does anyone know whether yeast bread is more caloric than sourdough bread?

About calories.
If an ordinary bread recipe (for example, a 500 g loaf) with dry yeast is taken for 100% of its energy value. And without changing anything, just add 3 tablespoons of leaven. And assume that the formation of 1 calorie of its own mass (fats + proteins + y / s), the cell spends 1.5-3 calories.
Then we get:
100% + some calories from the contents of 3 spoons,
- the calorie content of those flour carbohydrates that were additionally "eaten" by the sourdough,
+ caloric content of additional biomass grown on the eaten carbohydrates.

The fact that it turns out that 3 tablespoons of sourdough will practically not affect the calorie content of the loaf.
But if you replace flour with bran ...
But that's another topic.

And if you don't put yeast at all, and bake only with sourdough, the calorie content will significantly decrease? The calorie content of the yeast itself is about 350 kcal per 100 grams, that is, about 35 kcal in one bag. That's not a lot. But for some reason they always say that they get fat from yeast. That yeast somehow increases the calorie content of the dough? Or is it just another myth? Also, the situation with bran bread is not entirely clear to me. Well, such bread is absorbed more slowly, so the feeling of satiety should seem to be longer ... But this really can help not to snack between meals, but the calorie content does not change ... Or am I not getting it right?

And if yeast is not put at all, and the oven is only on sourdough, the calorie content will significantly decrease? The calorie content of the yeast itself is about 350 kcal per 100 grams, that is, about 35 kcal in one bag. That's not a lot. But for some reason they always say that they get fat from yeast. That yeast somehow increases the calorie content of the dough? Or is it just another myth? Also, the situation with bran bread is not entirely clear to me. Well, such bread is absorbed more slowly, so the feeling of satiety should seem to be longer ... But this really can help not to snack between meals, but the calorie content does not change ... Or am I not getting it right?

If you do not put the yeast, then you need to give more (2-3 times) time for the unhurried work of the leaven.
The contents of the yeast bag do not directly affect excess weight. It's just that yeast bread tastes better for us than unleavened bread, and we eat more of it.
Plus, yeast in the intestines (let's not go into how they get there) behave in two ways. On the one hand, they provide the body with amino acids and vitamins, and on the other hand, they whip up appetite.
The recipe of zemstvo doctors, in order to gain weight after an illness, you need to drink ferment (water + sugar + yeast). It really works.

And about bran bread is even more fun.
Firstly, bread with them is less calorie. We change easily digestible flour for pure fiber.
Secondly, a person has two mechanisms for the appearance of a feeling of satiety. Blood glucose and distended stomach. Here's to fill the stomach and help the bran.

And if you don't put yeast at all, and bake only with sourdough, the calorie content will significantly decrease?

The sourdough contains the same yeast. Moreover, if you believe what is written in the articles about hop, for example, sourdough, even the yeast culture is the same as in the "Saf-moment" bag.

So what is the use of suffering with leaven? The yeast is the same there. The calorie content is the same ... What is the point in the vitamins contained in the leaven? So I'd rather take a pill of the multivitamin complex. But bread is yeast-based and faster and tastier. On hop, they say, generally bitter.

You don't need to suffer with sourdough, you just need to turn it in, and then add it to the bread. It seems to me that the bread from this only becomes better, but this is my opinion, so I must add the leaven. And the yeast that you add to bread is not there, there is something completely different, Admin wrote about this in great detail in one of the topics.

The sourdough contains the same yeast. Moreover, if you believe what is written in the articles about hop, for example, sourdough, even the yeast culture is the same as in the Saf-moment bag.

Read at least the label, in dry it is an emulsifier or some other joy, and you are unlikely to add anything other than flour to the leaven

You don't need to suffer with sourdough, you just need to turn it in, and then add it to the bread. It seems to me that the bread from this only becomes better, but this is my opinion, so I must add the leaven.

What kind of leaven do you use? And in rye and wheat you add it together with yeast?

And sourdough from home-bread is not the same in essence, as well as in terms of vitamins and improving the quality of bread? I mean agram, for example?

[Celestine]

Celestine

Read at least the label, in dry it is an emulsifier or some other joy, and you are unlikely to add anything other than flour to the leaven

It was about the identity of the culture of yeast in sourdough and dry yeast in relation to the issue of calorie content.
The presence of other, as you say, joys is quantitatively small to affect the calorie content. It was the calorie content that was the subject of conversation. A separate branch is devoted to the safety of the Saf-moment yeast.

[Vasilisa]

Vasilisa

And sourdough from home-bread is not the same in essence, as well as in terms of vitamins and improving the quality of bread? I mean agram, for example?

In fact, if we consider the essence of only the chemical process of acidification of the dough, the same thing. Some recipes also use vinegar as an acidifier.
As already mentioned on the forum several times:

Agram (powder), (manufacturer IREKS AROMA, Croatia).
Rye and wheat flour, dough fermentation products, organic acids, emulsifiers.
Extra-R (powder), (manufactured by LLC "Niva").
Fermented rye malt, acidity regulator, oxidizer, fermented soy flour.

Convenient, always at hand, if any. Again, you don't have to maintain life as you would in raw sourdough. But chemistry ... And soybeans are also completely genetically modified.
As for vitamins, who really counted them in specific ferments?
Improving the quality of bread is also a matter of taste. Most likely, for someone there won't be much difference. I myself once tried Extra-R, but then returned to raw sourdough, but due to its naturalness.

I use Admin sourdough on kefir with rye flour and add it to rye, buckwheat, and sometimes wheat bread. I recommend the sourdough just gorgeous.

On the question of the difference in naturalness.

The flour improver for yeast dough contains:
wheat flour, soy flour, emulsifier E472e, calcium carbonate, ascorbic acid (E300), dextrose, enzymes.

The leaven contains:
rye flour, water (or kefir, or hop infusion)

If we go too far into the details, then any flour can contain improvers, which are added to improve it at the mills, but we will not know about this.

If we go too far into the details, then any flour can contain improvers, which are added to improve it at the mills, but we will not know about this.

Yes, and we learn this only by the unstable baking results.
And about antibiotics in dairy products, non-fermenting ferments and non-fermenting yoghurts.

I am still confused by the ferments made from "aged" fermented milk products. Indicators for E. coli there clearly must go off scale beyond reasonable limits. Is it as useful as it seems?

I am still confused by the ferments made from "aged" fermented milk products. Indicators for E. coli there clearly must go off scale beyond reasonable limits.Is it as useful as it seems?

Exactly. It's good if you have experience in cooking. And here you don't know what you can cook. Someone turns black, someone molds. I tried to make an eternal leaven, so it seems to have somehow over-acidified it. The bread with its addition tasted sour. I didn't dare to eat - I threw it out.

Exactly. Still, the microbiological parameters in such leavens are clearly not normal.

[Sorbic acid.]

Yeast Saf-moment contains an emulsifier sorbitan monostearate - a compound of stearic and sorbic acids.
Sorbic acid. Contained in rowan juice. Preservative. The antimicrobial properties of sorbic acid are quite pronounced, it inhibits the growth of most microorganisms. ( 🔗)
Stearic acid is part of the glycerides of all animal fats and grows. oils. ( 🔗)
So can we stop at the same time and rowan with vegetable oil to eat? Recently, in connection with this hype about various food additives, consumers have divided into two camps: those who do not care and those who are stupidly hostile to all additives, forgetting that chemicals are everywhere around us. All food we eat is composed of many chemical compounds. The same monosodium glutamate, against which everyone is opposed, is just the sodium salt of glutamic acid, which is synthesized in our body and participates in metabolism.
Contained in large quantities in casein, gelatin, gluten. In blood plasma, together with its g-monoamide - glutamine - it is about 1/3 of all free amino acids. In medicine, it is used in tablets, powders, pastes, as well as in solutions (for intravenous infusion) in the treatment of certain mental and nervous diseases. ( 🔗)
Biological action of glutamic acid (glutamate): detoxifying, antihypoxant, improving brain metabolism, regulating blood glucose levels, improving muscle tissue metabolism, etc.
It's just all about the amount of this or that substance. The amount of monosodium glutamate should not exceed 1 g per day. That's quite a lot.
But even the products we are used to in large quantities are poison. If you eat about 40 g of table salt, you can get poisoned.
But, of course, if you eat during the day, for example, first sausage, then chips, crackers, noodles in a bag, etc., then the allowable dose can be sorted out. Then the problems will begin.
But there are, of course, especially harmful additives, for example sodium benzoate, which, when interacting with certain acids, as a result turns into pure benzene, which is the strongest poison. I am always amazed by rosehip syrup, which is known to be consumed due to the high content of ascorbic acid in it, as sodium benzoate is often added to it. Almost all canned food and preserves contain this preservative. How do you feel about herring? positively?

Agram (powder), (manufacturer IREKS AROMA, Croatia).
Rye and wheat flour, dough fermentation products, organic acids, emulsifiers.
Extra-R (powder), (manufactured by LLC "Niva").
Fermented rye malt, acidity regulator, oxidant, fermented soy flour.

It would be nice to know what kind of emulsifiers, oxidants and acidity regulators are there. If, for example, acetic or citric acid, what are the problems?

+1000
I also think this is "unsanitary"

Girls, why are you pumping!

To speak, you have to be sure of what you are saying!

On your part, there are no analyzes, links, documents, you do not have information, you have never made sourdough, did not bake bread, did not observe him, his behavior, what is it, etc. - but all the same, and already " unsanitary, "bacteria ...

You at least shared such information in a personal.

Girls, why are you pumping!

To speak, you have to be sure of what you are saying!

On your part, there are no analyzes, links, documents, you do not own information, you have never made sourdough, did not bake bread, did not observe him, his behavior, what it is, etc. - and everything is there, and already "unsanitary", bacteria ...

You at least shared such information in a personal.

I disagree with you. Lola lays out horrors for everyone, also not confirmed by anything. And the presence of Escherichia coli and pathogenic flora in the so-called "aged" kefir or sour cream, which has been kept warm for a couple of days, is an obvious fact. Try to eat it - and see what happens to you.

I disagree with you. Lola lays out horrors for everyone, also not confirmed by anything. And the presence of Escherichia coli and pathogenic flora in the so-called "aged" kefir or sour cream, which has been kept warm for a couple of days, is an obvious fact. Try to eat it - and see what happens to you.

I read Temka here without thinking: I agree - I do not agree, but I thought, but the ancients, our great-greats, baked bread with sourdoughs, there was no industrial yeast then, they grew it ourselves, and Pinicelin is the same mold, so mold is mold - discord.
Nobody is going to drink aged kefir., but we are talking about clean dishes and, it is noted, and no mold should in any case be on the surface.

I disagree with you. Lola lays out horrors for everyone, also not confirmed by anything. And the presence of Escherichia coli and pathogenic flora in the so-called "aged" kefir or sour cream, which has been kept warm for a couple of days, is an obvious fact. Try to eat it - and see what happens to you.

I will not eat old, fermented kefir either.
But there are old proven rules that "fresh kefir weakens, and the old one strengthens".

For baking dough (bread, dough for pancakes), just the old, fermented kefir is suitable, since all fermentation processes develop in it, and lactic acid bacteria are necessary for the dough.
Try to bake pancakes (wheat or oat flakes) on fresh kefir - they will taste bland and sour, and if you add old fermented kefir, the dough rises better and tastes good.

Then there is an indicator of "spoilage" of fermented (old) kefir "- this is a pink film, if it appears on fermented kefir, it means that kefir (or sourdough) is spoiled, it is necessary to discard the kefir (sourdough). As a rule, this happens with store-bought kefir, which is made from standardized or reconstituted milk.With the market - this has never happened.

If the bread on kefir sourdough turned out to be sour, the sourdough did not ripen, did not over-acid.

What is sourdough - it is sour, i.e. fermented dough.
The sourdough is made from rye flour + water (or kefir, or hop infusion).

We have already talked about this a lot on the site on different branches: about different yeasts (their + and -), and about different starter cultures, and baking from them, and about making kefir, etc.

Open the search and search, it is useful to read, then try it yourself, ask questions, then we will talk about the "unsanitary conditions" of leavens.
And "dirt" can be found everywhere, there would be a desire.

And "dirt" can be found everywhere, there would be a desire.

This is for sure, we do not make leaven on the mud.
And what a delicious sour milk from sour milk, especially market milk (y) It is also souring for a reason, someone helps

our ancients great-greats baked bread with sourdoughs, there was no industrial yeast then, they themselves grew

Agree! But, our ancestors passed on manufacturing technology from generation to generation. The girls watched with their own eyes how it was done, they knew the taste ... And I, apparently, was too dumb. I read how to do it many times, but I got some dubious result ... So I'm not sure what will be more harm or benefit. Now I am thinking of bothering again with this leaven, because they say that it is of great benefit, or is it just baking with yeast? Therefore, I raised this topic.
Yes, and they write that bread rises poorly on leaven alone, but what is the point in adding leaven to yeast, if yeast works great?

Just add less yeast with sourdough. I didn't get the starter the first time either, but together with the advice of Admin, I now have it wonderful.

For good tasty rye bread, lactic acid bacteria are required (this is from a book on bread baking technology).
At home, you can and should bake sourdough bread (any), but the proofing of such bread is large - up to 10-14 hours.
If you have the desire and patience - go ahead! The oven will have to be in the oven.

When baking bread in a bread maker, such a proofing in time is not provided for by the program, therefore, to speed up, fast-acting yeast is added to reduce the baking cycle. The same is done at bakeries - leavens (lactic acid bacteria) + yeast.

Our ancestors from generation to generation passed on the production of "uterine leaven", almost eternal, there was information in the press that such leavens live in families up to 75 years. even in our time!

There is nothing complicated - start your own sourdough (it doesn't matter which one), and bake and pass it on from generation to generation. I gave the preparation of the uterine starter culture on the site.

My kefir sourdough has been living well for several months, and it only gets stronger from this, it becomes vigorous. To grow a leaven (any), patience is also required, so your time has not come yet. Try to do it again, if the soul burns on it, ask.

Just add less yeast with sourdough.

Explain to me stupid, please, why add leaven to yeast at all? For vitamins, I’d better drink the hop infusion (by the way, a good sedative), I’ll get the same vitamins. I can understand when they bake on only one sourdough - in order to exclude yeast, which is considered harmful, from the diet, and what purpose does the joint use of both yeast and sourdough have?

The combination of sourdough and yeast is used more often when baking rye bread, or wheat-rye, or wheat + other flour. The bread is really delicious, porous.
Although I was giving the bread recipe wheat with sourdough, medium acid - also very tasty. I do it quite often.

For good tasty rye bread, lactic acid bacteria are required (this is from a book on bread baking technology).

Aha! now it seems to be starting to clear up. That is, sourdough is needed to make delicious high-quality rye bread. Wheat bread is great without it. Got it right?
Now one question remains unclear for me: are the leavens prepared from home-bread worse than those prepared at home? (have already been discussed about the additives of emulsifiers, besides this, are there any other nuances?)

Aha! now it seems to be starting to clear up. That is, sourdough is needed to make delicious high-quality rye bread. Wheat bread is great without it. Got it right?
Now one question remains unclear for me: are the leavens prepared from home-bread worse than those prepared at home? (have already been discussed about the additives of emulsifiers, besides this, are there any other nuances?)

I already wrote about the composition of the leaven.

Now find the composition of all other leavens, including dry ones from the House-bread, and other improvers for flour, baking, etc. I have already cited one improver in its composition today, in my opinion, even on this branch.

And compare!

Choose what you like!

Good luck!

[Vasilisa]

Vasilisa

... why add sourdough to yeast at all?

Here's a quote from one of the forums:

to suppress the enzyme phytin in rye flour, sour dough (milk and vinegar microorganisms in it) is necessary. The yeast organisms (sour dough) will add air to the baked goods.

The Saf-moment yeast contains the emulsifier sorbitan monostearate - a compound of stearic and sorbic acids.

The combination of two substances is not equal to their sum. Chlorine is poisonous, and sodium generally explodes. And nothing, we eat.
But an insignificant fraction of this emulsifier is better than breeding bacteria from the dirty hands of Vasya the combiner.

Girls, why are you pumping!

To speak, you have to be sure of what you are saying!

On your part, there are no analyzes, links, documents, you do not own information, you have never made sourdough, did not bake bread, did not observe him, his behavior, what it is, etc.- and everything is there, and already "unsanitary", bacteria ...

You at least shared such information in a personal.

And on your part there are analyzes, documents, do you own information of a level higher than "it seems to me" and "one grandmother said"?

I have already criticized one such "article", about yeast on human bones, referring to German documents, classified in the USSR, according to which Russia is already extinct.

I am sure that no one has analyzed home-made sourdough on what yeast strains are contained there and whether they are safe for humans.

The long term of the sourdough content has nothing to do with its safety.
Anthrax can also remain alive for decades.

It is worth recalling that the average life expectancy has increased, over 75 years, in proportion to the spread of yeast bread, and not vice versa.

I still decided to bake bread with yeast, because I doubt their harm. It seems to me that the dirty air that we breathe, dirty water, etc., is much more harmful than that very emulsifier. And how many of these additives we eat every day with sausage, yoghurt, sweets, ice cream, mayonnaise, etc. Do not list. Under these conditions, it is foolish not to take advantage of the achievements of progress, if the benefits from them are more than harm.

I read the topic carefully.
Two approaches using progress and using old recipes.
For me, if there is harm from progress, even if half a day is more, then well, its nafik this progress
We bought a bread maker for the family just to bake sourdough bread. because we have not consumed yeast for several years.
Thanks to Admin for the info.
Best regards B

Check it out here:

Various starters

Lactic acid starter culture from Admin.
https://mcooker-enm.tomathouse.com/in...mf&Itemid=26&topic=3394.0

Kefir starter culture by Admin
https://mcooker-enm.tomathouse.com/in...mf&Itemid=26&topic=1068.0

Monastic leavens
https://mcooker-enm.tomathouse.com/in...smf&Itemid=26&topic=176.0

Luca's "eternal leaven"
https://mcooker-enm.tomathouse.com/in..._smf&Itemid=26&topic=41.0

Preparation of uterine starter culture
https://mcooker-enm.tomathouse.com/in...mf&Itemid=26&topic=1331.0

The use of starter cultures in the production of grain bread. Bread is the head of everything number 22
https://mcooker-enm.tomathouse.com/in...f&Itemid=26&topic=3394.15

The chemical part of dough formation All bread - head No. 23
(BAKERY MANUAL. 1913)
https://mcooker-enm.tomathouse.com/in...f&Itemid=26&topic=3394.15

ZAKVASKI - in questions and answers
https://mcooker-enm.tomathouse.com/in...mid=26&topic=3704.new#new